第4章　如何成为优秀的谈话家

最近，我参加了一次桥牌聚会。我不会打桥牌——恰好有一位美丽的女士也不会打桥牌。她知道我在罗维尔·托马斯从事无线电行业之前曾经担任过他的助理。当时，我去欧洲各地旅行，帮助他整理即将播出的旅行演讲。所以她说：“啊！卡耐基先生，你能不能将你所见过的名胜古迹告诉我？”

当我们在沙发上坐下的时候，她说她同她丈夫最近刚从非洲旅行回来。“非洲，”我说，“那可是一个非常有趣的地方！我总想去看看非洲，但我除了在阿尔及尔待过24小时外，没有到过其他任何地方。告诉我，你是否到过野兽出没的国度？是吗？真是幸运极了！我太羡慕你了！请讲讲非洲的情况吧！”

这让她说了45分钟。她不再问我到过什么地方或看见过什么东西。她并不是想听我谈论我的旅行，她想要的，是一个认真的倾听者，她可以借此机会讲她到过的地方，以扩大她的自我感。

她很特殊吗？不。许多人都是这样的。

例如，我在纽约一位出版商举行的宴会上遇到了一位著名的植物学家。我以前从来没有和植物学家交谈过，我觉得他具有极强的吸引力。我真的坐在椅子边

experiments in developing new forms of plant life and indoor gardens（and even told me astonishing facts about the humble potato）. I had a small indoor garden of my own—and he was good enough to tell me how to solve some of my problems.

As I said, we were at a dinner party. There must have been a dozen other guests, but I violated all the canons of courtesy, ignored everyone else, and talked for hours to the botanist.

Midnight came, I said good night to everyone and departed. The botanist then turned to our host and paid me several flattering compliments. I was “most stimulating.” I was this and I was that, and he ended by saying I was a “most interesting conversationalist.”

An interesting conversationalist? Why, I had said hardly anything at all. I couldn't have said anything if I had wanted to without changing the subject, for I didn't know any more about botany than I knew about the anatomy of a penguin. But I had done this: I had listened intently. I had listened because I was genuinely interested. And he felt it.Naturally that pleased him. That kind of listening is one of the highest compliments we can pay anyone.“Few human beings,” wrote Jack Woodford in Strangers in Love “few human beings are proof against the implied flattery of rapt attention.” I went even further than giving him rapt attention. I was “hearty in my approbation and lavish in my praise.”

I told him that I had been immensely entertained and instructed—and I had. I told him I wished I had his knowledge—and I did. I told him that I should love to wander the fields with him—and I have. I told him I must see him again—and I did.

And so I had him thinking of me as a good conversationalist when, in reality, I had

上，静静地听他介绍大麻、室内花园，甚至廉价马铃薯的惊人事实。我自己有一个室内小花园，他非常热情地告诉我如何解决我的问题。

我已经说过，我们这是在宴会中。还有十几位其他客人，但我违反了所有的礼节规矩，没有注意到其他人，而与这位植物学家谈了好几个小时。

到了深夜，我向众人告辞。这时这位植物学家转身面对主人，对我大加赞扬，说我是“最富激励性的人”，我在某方面这样，在某方面那样……他最后说我是一个“最有意思的谈话家”。

一个有意思的谈话家？我几乎没有说什么话。如果我不改变话题的话，我也说不出什么来，因为我对于植物学的知识就像对企鹅的解剖学一样全然无知。但是我做到了认真倾听。我专注地听着，因为我真的有了兴趣。他也察觉到了，这当然让他很高兴。这种倾听是我们对任何人的一种最高的恭维。伍德福德在《相爱的人》中写道：“很少有人能拒绝那种隐藏于专心倾听中的恭维。”而我却比专心致志还要更进一步。我这是“诚于嘉许，宽于称道”。

我告诉他，我已经得到了极其周到的款待和指导——我确实感到如此。我告诉他，我真的希望自己能有他的知识——我也确实希望如此。我还告诉他，我希望和他一起去田野漫步——我真的希望是这样。我还告诉他，我必须再见到他——我真的这样想。

been merely a good listener and had encouraged him to talk.

What is the secret, the mystery, of a successful business interview? Well, according to former Harvard president Charles W. Eliot, “There is no mystery about successful business intercourse... Exclusive attention to the person who is speaking to you is very important. Nothing else is so flattering as that.”

Self-evident, isn't it? You don't have to study for four years in Harvard to discover that. Yet I know and you know department store owners who will rent expensive space, buy their goods economically, dress their windows appealingly, spend thousands of dollars in advertising and then hire clerks who haven't the sense to be good listeners—clerks who interrupt customers, contradict them, irritate them, and all but drive them from the store.

A department store in Chicago almost lost a regular customer who spent several thousand dollars each year in that store because a sales clerk wouldn't listen. Mrs.Henrietta Douglas, who took our course in Chicago, had purchased a coat at a special sale. After she had brought it home she noticed that there was a tear in the lining. She came back the next day and asked the sales clerk to exchange it. The clerk refused even to listen to her complaint.“You bought this at a special sale,” she said. She pointed to a sign on the wall.“Read that,” she exclaimed.“‘All sales are final.’Once you bought it, you have to keep it. Sew up the lining yourself.”

“But this was damaged merchandise,” Mrs. Douglas complained.

“Makes no difference,” the clerk interrupted.“Final's final.”

Mrs. Douglas was about to walk out indignantly, swearing never to return to that store ever, when she was greeted by the department manager, who knew her from her many

就因为这样，我使他认为我是一个善于谈话的人。可是说实话，我不过是一个善于倾听的人，并鼓励他谈话而已。

成功的商业会谈的神奇秘诀是什么呢？根据前哈佛大学校长伊利亚特的观点，那就是：“成功的商业交往并没有什么神秘的……专心致志地倾听正在和你讲话的人，这是最重要的。没有别的东西会比这更使人开心的。”

这个道理很明显，是不是？你不必去哈佛大学读4年书才能领悟它。但是你和我也都知道，有的商人出重金租用豪华的店面做生意，橱窗的设计也很吸引人，他们还不惜投入巨资做广告，可是他们雇的却是那些不知道做倾听者的服务员——这些服务员甚至会打断顾客的谈话，反驳他们，激怒他们，有的甚至还将顾客赶出店去。

芝加哥市一家百货商场，由于员工不善倾听而差点失去了一位常客，这位顾客每年都要在这家商场消费几千美元。亨利塔·道格拉斯女士上了我们在芝加哥的课。她买了一件特价的衣服。可是买回家后注意到领子撕开了口，第二天她将衣服带回百货公司，要求售货员换货。可是售货员却不听她说话。“你买的是特价衣服。”售货员说，并指着墙上的标识说，“看，‘尾货概不退换。’如果你买了，就自己留着。你可以自己把领子缝好。”

“但这件衣服是坏的。”道格拉斯女士说。

years of patronage.Mrs.Douglas told her what had happened.

The manager listened attentively to the whole story, examined the coat and then said, “Special sales are‘final’, so we can dispose of merchandise at the end of the season. But this‘no return’policy does not apply to damaged goods. We will certainly repair or replace the lining, or if you prefer, give you your money back.”

What a difference in treatment! If that manager had not come along and listened to the customer, a long-term patron of that store could have been lost forever.

The chronic kicker, even the most violent critic, will frequently soften and be subdued in the presence of a patient, sympathetic listener—a listener who will be silent while the irate fault-finder dilates like a king cobra and spews the poison out of his system. To illustrate: The New York Telephone Company discovered a few years ago that it had to deal with one of the most vicious customers who ever cursed a customer service representative. And he did curse. He raved. He threatened to tear the phone out by its roots. He refused to pay certain charges that he declared were false. He wrote letters to the newspapers. He fried innumerable complaints with the Public Service Commission, and he started several suits against the telephone company.

At last, one of the company's most skillful “troubleshooters” was sent to interview this stormy petrel. This “troubleshooter” listened and let the cantankerous customer enjoy himself pouring out his tirade. The telephone representative listened and said “yes” and sympathized with his grievance.

“He raved on and I listened for nearly three hours,” the “troubleshooter” said as he related his experiences before one of the author's classes.“Then I went back and listened

“也一样，”售货员打断说，“尾货就是尾货。”

道格拉斯女士正要愤怒地离开，发誓再也不光顾这家商场了。这时市场部经理过来和她打招呼，他已认识她许多年了。道格拉斯女士讲了事情的经过。

这位经理认真地听了整个经过，检查了衣服，然后说：“特价品是尾货，所以我们在季度末会处理一些商品。但这并不是说卖劣等品。我们当然会修好或更换衣领，或者如果你愿意，你可以退款。”

多么不同的处理呀！如果那位经理不来倾听，商场将会永远失去一位长期客户。

喜欢挑剔的人，甚至最激烈的批评，也常常会在一个具有忍耐心和同情心的倾听者面前变得软化——当怒火万丈的寻衅者像一条大毒蛇张嘴咬人的时候，这位倾听者应当保持缄默。例如，纽约电话公司在几年前不得不想办法去安抚一位曾凶言恶语咒骂客服代表的顾客。他可是真的咒骂。他简直有些歇斯底里，甚至威胁毁掉电话线路。他不仅拒绝支付某些不合理的费用，还写信给各家报纸，并多次向公众服务委员会投诉，好几次向法院起诉这家电话公司。

最后，电话公司派了一位经验丰富的调解员去见这位暴怒的顾客。这位调解员只是静静地听着，听凭这位好辩的老先生大发牢骚。这位电话公司的调解员倾听着，不断说“是”，并同情他的冤屈。

some more. I interviewed him four times, and before the fourth visit was over I had become a charter member of an organization he was starting. He called it the‘Telephone Subscribers’Protective Association. I am still a member of this organization, and, so far as I know, I'm the only member in the world today besides Mr.—

“I listened and sympathized with him on every point that he made during these interviews. He had never had a telephone representative talk with him that way before, and he became almost friendly. The point on which I went to see him was not even mentioned on the first visit, nor was it mentioned on the second or third, but upon the fourth interview, I closed the case completely, he paid all his bills in full, and for the first time in the history of his difficulties with the telephone company he voluntarily withdrew his complaints from the Public Service Commission.”

Doubtless Mr.—had considered himself a holy crusader, defending the public rights against callous exploitation. But in reality, what he had really wanted was a feeling of importance. He got this feeling of importance at first by kicking and complaining. But as soon as he got his feeling of importance from a representative of the company, his imagined grievances vanished into thin air.

One morning years ago, an angry customer stormed into the office of Julian F. Detmer, founder of the Detmer Woolen Company, which later became the world's largest distributor of woolens to the tailoring trade.

“This man owed us a small sum of money,” Mr. Detmer explained to me.“The customer denied it, but we knew he was wrong. So our credit department had insisted that he pay. After getting a number of letters from our credit department, he packed his

“他继续毫无顾忌地说了将近3个小时，”这位调解员在我的班上叙述他的经历时说，“以后我又多次去他那里听他抱怨。我见过他4次，而在第4次访问结束时，我已经成为他正在创办的一个组织的主要会员了。他称之为‘电话用户权益保障协会’。我现在仍然是这个组织的会员。然而，据我所知，除了这位老先生之外，我是这个组织在这个世界上唯一的会员。

“每次拜访时，我都是倾听他谈话，并且赞同他的每一个观点。他从来没有遇到过电话公司的人像我这样和他谈话，这使得他变得几乎友善起来。我在第一次拜访中并没有提到见他的目的，在第二次、第三次也没有提到我的目的。但在第4次，我妥善处理了案件——老先生将所有的欠费都付清了，并使他自从与电话公司作对以来，第一次撤销了向公众服务委员会的投诉。”

显然，这位老先生自认为是在为公益而战，是在保护公众的权利不被无情地剥夺。但实际上他是在追求一种自重感。他先是通过挑剔和抱怨来得到这种自重感。但是，当他从电话公司的代表那里得到了自重感时，他那并不真实的冤屈立即化为乌有。

好几年前的一个早上，一位怒气冲冲的客户闯进了德第摩尔毛料公司——这家公司后来成了世界上服装行业最大的毛料供应公司之一——创始人德第摩尔先生的办公室。

grip, made a trip to Chicago, and hurried into my office to inform me not only that he was not going to pay that bill, but that he was never going to buy another dollar's worth of goods from the Detmer Woolen Company.

“I listened patiently to all he had to say. I was tempted to interrupt, but I realized that would be bad policy. So I let him talk himself out. When he finally simmered down and got in a receptive mood, I said quietly，‘I want to thank you for coming to Chicago to tell me about this. You have done me a great favor, for if our credit department has annoyed you, it may annoy other good customers, and that would be just too bad.Believe me, I am far more eager to hear this than you are to tell it.’

“That was the last thing in the world he expected me to say. I think he was a trifle disappointed, because he had come to Chicago to tell me a thing or two, but here I was thanking him instead of scrapping with him. I assured him we would wipe the charge off the books and forget it, because he was a very careful man with only one account to look after, while our clerks had to look after thousands. Therefore, he was less likely to be wrong than we were.

“I told him that I understood exactly how he felt and that, if I were in his shoes, I should undoubtedly feel precisely as he did. Since he wasn't going to buy from us anymore, I recommended some other woolen houses.

“In the past, we had usually lunched together when he came to Chicago, so I invited him to have lunch with me this day. He accepted reluctantly, but when we came back to the office he placed a larger order than ever before. He returned home in a softened mood and, wanting to be just as fair with us as we had been with him, looked over his

“这个人欠我们公司15美元，”德第摩尔先生向我解释说。“尽管这位顾客不承认，但我们知道他错了。所以我们公司信用部坚持要他付款。他在收到我们信用部的几封信之后，穿戴整齐地来到芝加哥，怒气冲冲地闯进我的办公室，说他不但不会付那笔钱，而且今后再也不会订购德第摩尔公司任何货物。

“我耐心地听他说完一切。我好几次都想打断他，但我知道那只会弄僵，所以我就让他尽情发泄。当他最后怒气消尽，能够静下心来听别人的意见时，我平静地说：‘你到芝加哥来告诉我这件事，我得向你表示感谢。你已帮了我一个大忙，因为我们信用部如果使您不愉快的话，它也可能会让别的顾客不高兴，那可真是太糟了。你一定要相信我，我比你更想听到这件事。’

“他大概怎么也没有料到我会这样说。我想他可能还会有一点失望，因为他到芝加哥来，本来是想和我大干一番的，可是我却向他表示感谢，而不是和他争论。我明白地告诉他，我们要勾销那笔15美元的账，并忘掉这件事，因为他是一个很细心的人，而且只是涉及这一份账目，而我们的员工却要负责几千份账目，所以和我们的员工相比，他不大可能出错。

“我告诉他，我十分清楚他的感受，如果我处在他的位置，我也会和他的感受一样。由于他不想再买我们的产品了，于是我给他推荐了其他几家公司。

“以往他每次来芝加哥时，我们总是一同吃午餐，所以那天我照例请他吃午

bills, found one that had been mislaid, and sent us a check with his apologies.

“Later, when his wife presented him with a baby boy, he gave his son the middle name of Detmer, and he remained a friend and customer of the house until his death twenty-two years afterwards.”

Years ago, a poor Dutch immigrant boy washed the windows of a bakery shop after school to help support his family. His people were so poor that in addition he used to go out in the street with a basket every day and collect stray bits of coal that had fallen in the gutter where the coal wagons had delivered fuel. That boy, Edward Bok, never got more than six years of schooling in his life; yet eventually he made himself one of the most successful magazine editors in the history of American journalism. How did he do it? That is a long story, but how he got his start can be told briefly. He got his start by using the principles advocated in this chapter.

He left school when he was thirteen and became an office boy for Western Union, but he didn't for one moment give up the idea of an education. Instead, he started to educate himself. He saved his carfares and went without lunch until he had enough money to buy an encyclopedia of American biography—and then he did an unheard-of thing. He read the lives of famous people and wrote them asking for additional information about their childhoods. He was a good listener. He asked famous people to tell him more about themselves. He wrote General James A.Garfield, who was then running for President, and asked if it was true that he was once a tow boy on a canal; and Garfield replied. He wrote General Grant asking about a certain battle, and Grant drew a map for him and invited this fourteen-year-old boy to dinner and spent the evening talking to

餐，他勉强答应了，但是当我们回到办公室的时候，他订了比以往更多的货物，然后平心静气地回去了。为了回报我们如此宽厚地对待他，他检查了他的账单，找到了一张他以前放错了地方的账单。于是，他给我们公司寄来了一张支票，并表达了他的歉意。

“后来，他的妻子生了一个男孩，他为他的儿子取名德第摩尔。他一直是我们公司的朋友和顾客，直到22年后去世。”

多年前，有一个贫困的荷兰移民少年，他每天都在放学后为一个面包店擦窗户，好挣点钱养家。他家非常贫困，因此他每天都必须挎上一个篮子，去街上拾运煤车送煤时落在沟里的碎煤块。这个孩子名叫巴克，一生只在学校读过6年书，但他最后竟成为美国新闻界有史以来最成功的杂志编辑之一。他是怎么做的呢？说来话长，但关于他是如何开始的可以做个简单的介绍。他正是利用本章所提出的原则而走向成功的。

巴克13岁就离开了学校，去西联公司做了一名童工，但他从来都没有放弃过求学的念头。他开始自学。他平时不坐车，不吃午饭，最后用省下来的钱买了一部《美国名人传记大全》——然后他做了一件人们未曾听说过的事情。他读了这些名人传记后，开始给他们写信，请求得到他们童年时代的补充材料。他是一个善于倾听的人，他恳请这些名人谈论他们自己。他又给当时正在竞选总统的加飞

him.

Soon our Western Union messenger boy was corresponding with many of the most famous people in the nation: Ralph Waldo Emerson, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Longfellow, Mrs. Abraham Lincoln, Louisa May Alcott, General Sherman and Jefferson Davis. Not only did he correspond with these distinguished people, but as soon as he got a vacation, he visited many of them as a welcome guest in their homes. This experience imbued him with a confidence that was invaluable. These men and women fired him with a vision and ambition that shaped his life. And all this, let me repeat, was made possible solely by the application of the principles we are discussing here.

Isaac F. Marcosson, a journalist who interviewed hundreds of celebrities, declared that many people fail to make a favorable impression because they don't listen attentively.“They have been so much concerned with what they are going to say next that they do not keep their ears open... Very important people have told me that they prefer good listeners to good talkers, but the ability to listen seems rarer than almost any other good trait.”

And not only important personages crave a good listener, but ordinary folk do too. As the Reader's Digest once said, “Many persons call a doctor when all they want is an audience.”

During the darkest hours of the Civil War, Lincoln wrote to an old friend in Springfield, Illinois, asking him to come to Washington. Lincoln said he had some problems he wanted to discuss with him. The old neighbor called at the White

大将写信，问他以前是否真的在一条运河上当过纤夫，加飞给他回了信。他还给格兰特将军写信，询问某一次战役的有关情况，格兰特将军为他画了一张地图，并邀请这位14岁的少年和他共进晚餐，和他谈了整整一晚上。

不久，这位西联公司的信童便和国内最著名的人通起信来：爱默生、温德勒·霍尔摩斯、朗费罗、林肯夫人、露易莎·奥尔科特、谢尔曼将军和杰弗逊·戴维斯。他不仅和这些著名人士通信，而且一到休息日或节假日就去拜访他们中的许多人，成了他们家中受欢迎的客人。这些经历使他培养出一种价值连城的自信心。这些著名人士激发了他的理想和志向，改变了他的人生。而所有这一切，让我再说一遍吧，都只是因为实行了我们在本章所讨论的原则而成为可能。

马可逊访问过几百位著名人物。他说许多人之所以不能给别人留下良好的印象，就是因为他们不注意倾听。“他们极其关心的是他们自己下面要说什么，他们从来都不会侧耳倾听……许多名人曾告诉我，和善于谈话者相比，他们更喜欢善于倾听者。但是，善于倾听的能力好像比任何其他能力都要少。”

不仅仅是重要人物愿意和善于倾听的人打交道，就连普通人也不例外。这正像《读者文摘》中曾说过的：“许多人去看医生，他们需要的不过是一个善于倾听的人。”

在美国内战最激烈的时候，林肯写信给在伊利诺伊州斯普林菲尔德镇的一位朋友，请他来华盛顿。林肯说他想和他探讨一些问题。这位老朋友到了白宫，

House, and Lincoln talked to him for hours about the advisability of issuing a proclamation freeing the slaves.Lincoln went over all the arguments for and against such a move, and then read letters and newspaper articles, some denouncing him for not freeing the slaves and others denouncing him for fear he was going to free them. After talking for hours, Lincoln shook hands with his old neighbor, said good night, and sent him back to Illinois without even asking for his opinion.Lincoln had done all the talking himself. That seemed to clarify his mind.“He seemed to feel easier after that talk,” the old friend said.Lincoln hadn't wanted advice. He had wanted merely a friendly, sympathetic listener to whom he could unburden himself. That's what we all want when we are in trouble. That is frequently all the irritated customer wants, and the dissatisfied employee or the hurt friend.

If you want to know how to make people shun you and laugh at you behind your back and even despise you, here is the recipe: Never listen to anyone for long. Talk incessantly about yourself. If you have an idea while the other person is talking, don't wait for him or her to finish, bust right in and interrupt in the middle of a sentence.

Do you know people like that? I do, unfortunately; and the astonishing part of it is that some of them are prominent.

Bores, that is all they are—bores intoxicated with their own egos, drunk with a sense of their own importance.

People who talk only of themselves think only of themselves. And “those people who think only of themselves,” Dr.Nicholas Murray Butler, longtime president of Columbia

于是林肯就关于解放黑奴是否合适这个问题，和他谈了好几个小时。林肯详细分析了赞成或反对这项措施的各种观点，又读了一些信件及报纸上的文章——其中有的谴责他不解放黑奴，但也有的谴责他要解放黑奴。谈论几个小时之后，林肯与这位老朋友握了握手，说了声“晚安”之后，就派人将他送回了伊利诺伊，竟然没有征求他的意见。所有的话都是林肯一个人说的，似乎这样才能使他平静下来。“谈完之后，他似乎稍稍感到舒适些。”这位老朋友说。林肯并不想要建议。林肯所需要的只是一位友善的、同情的倾听者，使他可以宣泄内心的苦闷——而这正是我们每个人在困难中都需要的，这也正是那些愤怒的顾客所需要的，不满意的雇员、伤感的朋友也都是这样。

如果你想知道如何让别人躲避你，在背后讥笑你，甚至轻视你，这里就有一个好方法，那就是永远不要长时间地倾听别人谈话，而是不断地谈论你自己，如果你在别人谈话过程中有了一个想法，大可不必等他说完，只要立即插嘴说你自己的事情，就可以让他住口。

你认识这种人吗？不幸得很，我认识，但最让人感到震惊的是，他们中一些人还是知名人士。

他们正是那种令人厌恶的人——被他们的自私及他们的自重感所麻醉了的、令人厌恶的人。

一心只谈自己的人只会为自己着想。而“只为自己着想的人，”哥伦比亚

University, said, “are hopelessly uneducated. They are not educated,” said Dr. Butler, “no matter how instructed they may be.”

So if you aspire to be a good conversationalist, be an attentive listener. To be interesting, be interested.Ask questions that other persons will enjoy answering.Encourage them to talk about themselves and their accomplishments.

Remember that the people you are talking to are a hundred times more interested in themselves and their wants and problems than they are in you and your problems. A person's toothache means more to that person than a famine in China which kills a million people. A boil on one's neck interests one more than forty earthquakes in Africa. Think of that the next time you start a conversation.

Principle 4：Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves.

大学校长巴德勒博士说，“是无可救药的，也是不可教育的。”巴德勒博士说，“无论他接受过什么样的教育。”

所以，如果你希望成为一个善于谈话的人，就要做一个善于倾听的人。要使别人对你感兴趣，首先就要对别人感兴趣。不妨问问别人喜欢回答的问题，鼓励他们开口谈他们自己以及他们所取得的成就。

要记住，那个正在与你谈话的人对他自己、他的需要、他的问题比对你及你的问题感兴趣超过上百倍。一个人的牙痛对他来说，比中国死亡百万人的灾难还重要；一个人对自己脖子上一点痒痒的在意也要远远超过对非洲40次地震的关注。在你下次开始谈话的时候，请不要忘了这一点。

第四项规则：做一个善于倾听的人，鼓励别人谈论他们自己。